Play as Mindfulness Practice with Chief Play Officer TJ Matton

Sara: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.

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Thinkydoers are those of us drawn to deep work where thinking is working.

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But we don't stop there.

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We're compelled to move the work from insight to idea, through the messy

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middle, to find courage and confidence to put our thoughts into action.

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I'm Sara Lobkovich, and I'm a Thinkydoer.

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I'm here to help others find more satisfaction, less frustration, less

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friction, and more flow in our work.

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My mission is to help changemakers like you transform our workplaces and world.

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So, let's get started.

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All right, so this is part two of my conversation with TJ, who is an

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expert in a long list of things, but what we're talking about...

TJ: 00:00:52

Jack of all trades and master of none.

Sara: 00:00:55

No, I don't think that's true at all.

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Listen to our first episode, and then we can talk about mastery.

TJ: 00:01:00

My background is as a social worker, and I think that's part of what drives

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me to this work is that my work is all started in social justice, and humanistic

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philosophy, and feministic psychology.

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So, I am a social worker, and I work as a trauma therapist and a coach.

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In our first conversation, we talked about kind of foundations of

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play, why my listeners shouldn't turn this episode off when they hear the word

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"play." And next, we're going to say "mindfulness." Again, don't turn it off.

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Don't turn it off.

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We're reclaiming it.

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True!

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So, we talked about modes of play, and then what we're going to do

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today is talk about how to put this into practice—specifically,

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play as a mindfulness practice.

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Which mindfulness can be challenging for some of us, especially

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folks listening to this podcast.

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So, let's get nitty-gritty.

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Where can we start with reintegrating play into our lives?

TJ: 00:01:53

So, the first thing that I think is important to pull forward from the first

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conversation is that play is how we learn new ways of thinking, being, operating.

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It is how we build new neural pathways.

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It is what is necessary in order for us to grow, expand, or evolve as a person.

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We can't help but grow, expand, and evolve as a person, and so

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play is this way of participating in our growth process, right?

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And play starts with choice, and so when we talk about combining play

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and mindfulness, it starts with the question: What do you want to play for?

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What matters to you?

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And again, play starts from this embodied sense of choice—what do you

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care about and what matters to you?

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And one of the things that I think is important is that like

TJ: 00:02:40

play is not hierarchical, right?

TJ: 00:02:44

So, I had a play challenge for myself like two years ago where I just really

TJ: 00:02:48

wanted more laughter in my life.

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So I went on a hunt for laughers in my life.

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And I called them "slutty laughers." it was the year of slutty laughers.

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I wanted to make friends because I didn't grow up in a house with a ton of laughter.

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I'm a trauma therapist; so I don't spend a ton of time laughing.

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I have like my own personal trauma stories and histories, like

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of being in that kind of body.

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So, laughter was just not something that came super naturally to

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me, and I want more laughter.

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I was just on the hunt for like frivolous laughers who kept that part of themselves.

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And so that was a mindfulness practice for me is —whose laughs do I love?

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What does it look like for people laugh at?

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What do people even laugh about?

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I did not conceptually understand it.

TJ: 00:03:32

So, it became a practice for me, and it was a time of really

TJ: 00:03:35

embodying more frivolous play.

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For somebody who like is a little bit of a deeper, more meaningful

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player, it wasn't meaningless.

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time I laughed, was this practice of, "You can do it, TJ. Laughter belongs

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in your body." You can do this.

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And oh my god, the way that laughter comes so much more easily to me now.

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Laughing at myself, laughing at everybody I love, laughing at even

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the people who hurt me —like when I'm just like, "Oh my god, that was so

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ridiculous what they just said. Can you believe it?" And I'm not hyper-focused.

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I'm not spiraling about it.

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I'm just laughing it and moving on.

TJ: 00:04:09

But that was so based on just spending time studying frivolousness,

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that felt unfamiliar to me.

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So, really building a mindfulness play practice—and again, I define play

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as being engaged with something with your enjoyment as the central focus.

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And so when we focus on enjoyment, our enjoyment is never wasted.

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That focusing on our enjoyment is an embodiment practice.

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How can I stay as embodied and co-creating, moment to moment, a

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sensation and an experience that works for me, that works with other people.

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Where I'm not shifting into people-pleasing, I'm not shifting into

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power, controlling the dynamic, right?

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How do I stay in that co-creative process with my enjoyment?

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So, play really starts with: What do you care about?

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What matters to you?

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What kind of evolution do you want to opt into?

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And this is where play becomes a mindfulness practice.

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It's like, focusing on your enjoyment.

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And then how do you enjoy yourself in the co-creative growth process?

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What neural pathways do you want to create?

TJ: 00:05:24

And some people are just really gifted at frivolous play, and this

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is really important because frivolous play doesn't helps us turn that

TJ: 00:05:33

hypervigilance down in our body.

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It helps us stop defending ourselves.

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Like, I was happy.

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"Why did you do it?" Cause I liked it.

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Why else?

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Do I need another reason?

TJ: 00:05:45

Frivolous play and studying frivolous play is like super important in

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helping turn hypervigilance down.

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And similarly, serious play helps build a lot of intentionality, a lot of focus,

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a lot of meaningfulness in our life.

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And I find that adults, when you're relearning play or when you're practicing

TJ: 00:06:03

play as a mindfulness practice, like having that intentionality around

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it—whether that intention is frivolous or serious— helps set the container.

TJ: 00:06:11

It's builds that quest feel, like, "Where are we going with this?"

TJ: 00:06:16

Particularly because for many people, we live in a play-deprived culture.

TJ: 00:06:20

So, learning and relearning play—you talked last time

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about that sub-threshold right?

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It's vulnerable and it's a little bit scary.

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And so the only way that we're going to be able to stay in that edge

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of vulnerability is knowing that this vulnerability matters to us.

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That it's part of our bigger game, like that this move matters to the bigger game.

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This is part of what I love about like the combination of like the way

TJ: 00:06:46

neurodivergents need to be practicing play as a mindfulness assist.

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We love side quests, right?

TJ: 00:06:53

So, each little practice is like a side quest that is for

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a more infinite sense of game.

Sara: 00:06:59

Again, you're blowing my mind as I'm not to make this about me, but 15

Sara: 00:07:03

or so years into therapy, and I've never had a satisfactory anything to try around

Sara: 00:07:11

hypervigilance in terms of what I struggle with, and it's just a phenomenon that I,

Sara: 00:07:18

yet, and I'm a good therapy participant...

TJ: 00:07:21

We're working hard.. You're doing good.

TJ: 00:07:23

You got A+.

Sara: 00:07:24

Yeah.

Sara: 00:07:25

But probably B+.

TJ: 00:07:26

But no one needs an A+ in therapy.

Sara: 00:07:28

Nobody needs an A+, but that phenomenon, from a patient

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standpoint, there's not a lot of therapy has to offer there.

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So, the idea that play is a practice that can help with

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hypervigilance is just revolutionary.

TJ: 00:07:47

So one of the play practice around hypervigilance is

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spending time opting into it.

TJ: 00:07:54

Go to a park, or somewhere you feel safe, like a coffee shop, somewhere

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that feels familiar, and either write down or study every single detail

TJ: 00:08:06

for the purpose of your enjoyment.

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Like, what is every single thing that intrigues me?

TJ: 00:08:10

Every single one.

TJ: 00:08:11

Every single one.

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And because you're going to start to feel like this is what it

TJ: 00:08:14

means to opt into hypervigilance.

TJ: 00:08:18

when feels good to be in that intellectual intensity.

TJ: 00:08:21

Because again, if you're a top-down intellectual learner, sometimes we

TJ: 00:08:25

hold on to symptoms like hypervigilance because we don't know what to do

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with the excitement and the aliveness that gets buried within that symptom.

TJ: 00:08:35

That is actually play being like, "I want to study the shit out of life, right?"

TJ: 00:08:41

That's part of what hypervigilance is.

TJ: 00:08:42

It's like, I want to know every single fucking thing that's in me and around me.

TJ: 00:08:47

And so go do it, but opt into it, right?

TJ: 00:08:51

Opt into it.

TJ: 00:08:51

That's a way to begin to play with this symptom as like a play buddy, right?

TJ: 00:08:56

Like how can I be a play buddy to this symptom?

TJ: 00:08:59

Where the body starts to detangle being on the other end of it as a

TJ: 00:09:02

suffering experience and instead embraces that as as an impulse.

TJ: 00:09:08

What if the hypervigilance was a play buddy?

TJ: 00:09:11

And this is why it's important to do this in a place that feels safe enough.

TJ: 00:09:15

And this that part that feels safe enough, where the body has that intellectual and

TJ: 00:09:21

embodiment consent, like, "Yeah, I go to this coffee shop regularly." Or, "I go

TJ: 00:09:25

to this library regularly." Or, "I go, I sit in the carpool line regularly."

TJ: 00:09:31

Like, where is there enough of that safe enough for you to then step into

TJ: 00:09:36

the hypervigilance as own play buddy?

Sara: 00:09:38

Yeah, it's choosing it.

Sara: 00:09:40

Again, this makes me think of my own mindfulness practice.

Sara: 00:09:44

By my young adulthood, I would describe myself as very emotionally reactive.

Sara: 00:09:50

And part of living to coexist with that, or shifting it because it just didn't

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feel good, was learning that curiosity is an awesome play buddy for me.

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So I can either be anxious or reactive, or I can get curious.

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And that's the play buddy that I want to spend more time with.

Sara: 00:10:09

And so I'm hearing the same thing here, it's like this is another next step of

Sara: 00:10:14

that shift to say, "Alright, be mindful.

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What am I feeling?

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Is it something I want to feel?

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Is it something I don't want to feel?" And if listeners can do that, high fives!

Sara: 00:10:24

Like, that's huge progress.

TJ: 00:10:29

The reality is we might not care about figuring out our

TJ: 00:10:32

hypervigilance in like the carpool line or in the coffee shop, right?

TJ: 00:10:36

Where we often care about our hypervigilance is in family dinners,

TJ: 00:10:40

or, new social settings, back-to-school, like we're in the fall right now, so

TJ: 00:10:44

back-to-school nights where we like want to be building community, right?

TJ: 00:10:48

And so, when we learn to opt into hypervigilance, when we start to feel

TJ: 00:10:52

activated again in that parasympathetic way, we can be like, "Oh, do I need

TJ: 00:10:57

to have that on? Is this a place that is truly feeling unsafe for me?" And

TJ: 00:11:01

if I so, let's get out of here, right?

TJ: 00:11:04

Ain't my place to play." And if not, if this is safe enough for

TJ: 00:11:08

me to play, what's the play here?

TJ: 00:11:09

Maybe you start studying who has similar clothes on, who's got the same pattern

TJ: 00:11:14

of shirts, who looks like they would be probably related in a secret DNA test?

TJ: 00:11:21

Or you start making up stories about people: who looks like they

TJ: 00:11:24

could fix my plumbing in my house?

TJ: 00:11:26

And you start to turn that story maker on, because again, this

TJ: 00:11:29

is a big part of hypervigilance.

TJ: 00:11:30

It's a story framework, right?

TJ: 00:11:33

And over time, this allows us to interact and begin to look for safe social

TJ: 00:11:38

experiences that our hypervigilance is like looking to do but doesn't

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actually know how to do that because it's trained to look for danger.

TJ: 00:11:46

And so our system has two paths: to look for social connection and

TJ: 00:11:50

safety, or to look for danger.

TJ: 00:11:53

And so play is this practice of, are we safe enough to play?

TJ: 00:11:56

And then, what are we playing for?

TJ: 00:11:58

And so hypervigilance might be a play of like, "How do I play with

TJ: 00:12:01

more belonging?" "How do I play for comfort?" "How do I play for ease?"

TJ: 00:12:07

And so again, this is part of, I think embracing play as a mindfulness practice.

TJ: 00:12:11

It's literally just saying, "What am I playing for?" And I think

TJ: 00:12:15

this matters because as we begin to study play, it's vulnerable.

TJ: 00:12:19

It's shaky.

TJ: 00:12:20

We want to retract and retreat to patterns we know.

TJ: 00:12:24

And so the "What do we care about?" "What are you playing for?" Holds us in this

TJ: 00:12:28

place that's like, "You can do this.

TJ: 00:12:31

I believe in you to take this path.

TJ: 00:12:35

You can play for a better future, a better experience." Because

TJ: 00:12:39

again, play has that fight.

TJ: 00:12:41

What are we fighting for?

TJ: 00:12:43

Right?

TJ: 00:12:43

And that's part, that's what we mean by mindfulness: What are you playing for?

TJ: 00:12:47

That is the anchor.

TJ: 00:12:48

Because again, play is a choice, and that's what it means for, to embrace

TJ: 00:12:52

play as a mindfulness practice, that it doesn't force you to be calm.

TJ: 00:12:56

It asks you to be alive, to co-create within the moment.

Sara: 00:13:00

That is so powerful for those of us who've been told that mindfulness is

Sara: 00:13:05

sitting down and being quiet, being still.

Sara: 00:13:08

But it also so firmly centers the question of "What are you playing for?

Sara: 00:13:14

do you care about?" And that's, again, in my coaching, a question people are

Sara: 00:13:18

not always spending the time to ask.

Sara: 00:13:21

That right there, that question of "What might you want to play for?" could be a

Sara: 00:13:26

revolutionary question for some people.

Sara: 00:13:28

So when we think about that kind of getting started and what's

Sara: 00:13:33

the first step that someone could take, where would you steer them?

TJ: 00:13:38

Yeah, so one of the first things I work with people to

TJ: 00:13:41

initially begin to explore, is we all have play patterns, right?

TJ: 00:13:44

And so I often think about helping people, like, "What do you imagine your

TJ: 00:13:49

play patterns might be?" And again, sometimes it helps people to think back

to childhood: 00:13:52

What did I like to do?

to childhood: 00:13:55

And again, remembering that play is not an action, but an experience, right?

to childhood: 00:13:58

I really like to play Legos.

to childhood: 00:14:00

Was it that you liked to accomplish the finishing of the Lego?

to childhood: 00:14:04

Was it that you liked to put pieces together?

to childhood: 00:14:07

And begin to pull on those strings, but find them in your everyday life, right?

to childhood: 00:14:13

And again, some of us being top-down players, some of us

to childhood: 00:14:16

being more bottom-up players, where we create within the moment.

to childhood: 00:14:19

And some of us love more instructional learning.

to childhood: 00:14:22

Some of us being more intellectual players, some of us being

to childhood: 00:14:26

more storytellers, and some of us being more body players.

to childhood: 00:14:30

And so I think about: Are you a close, like, a top-down, more closed-loop player?

to childhood: 00:14:34

Are you a bottom-up, more open-loop player?

to childhood: 00:14:37

And then, are you an intellectual player?

to childhood: 00:14:40

You might benefit from a life as a lifelong learner, right?

to childhood: 00:14:43

And intellectually invigorous, right?

to childhood: 00:14:46

Are you somebody who loves, the heart-centered, connected play?

to childhood: 00:14:50

Or are you somebody who, really needs to kinetically engage in something?

to childhood: 00:14:54

And then just start practicing that, right?

to childhood: 00:14:57

Kinetically engage in your brushing of your teeth, right?

to childhood: 00:15:00

Find—again, we think about play as novelty and repetition—so I

to childhood: 00:15:04

often start people with something that they do every single day.

to childhood: 00:15:08

But do it differently.

to childhood: 00:15:09

How many steps does it take you to get to the mailbox?

to childhood: 00:15:14

That could be an intellectual play, or that could be a body play, right?

to childhood: 00:15:18

What do my feet feel like when they hit the ground, right?

to childhood: 00:15:21

How many of my bones can I count when they hit the ground, right?

to childhood: 00:15:25

And so even I think it's really helpful for people to take something

to childhood: 00:15:29

that they know they're going to do every day and do it differently and

to childhood: 00:15:33

see, "Do I want to engage in this thing from a thinky way, from a feely

to childhood: 00:15:38

way, or from a body way, right?" And is there a goal that I have in mind?

to childhood: 00:15:43

"I'm going to practice brushing my teeth for two minutes as

to childhood: 00:15:45

weirdly as I can," right?

to childhood: 00:15:47

Or, "Am I more of that non-linear explorer play? Where I'm going to see if my hips

to childhood: 00:15:52

can brush my teeth, right?" Because again, play is about unleashing the enjoyment.

to childhood: 00:15:58

The seeking and the co-creating of the experience of enjoyment.

to childhood: 00:16:01

And understanding it's going to feel weird.

to childhood: 00:16:04

It's going to feel weird, it's going to feel vulnerable, especially for

to childhood: 00:16:07

people who have had their play shamed.

to childhood: 00:16:10

So we begin exploring in this way.

to childhood: 00:16:13

And over time, some people, I think, it's very clear for them, what

to childhood: 00:16:18

their mindfulness play is—what are they playing for—while others may

to childhood: 00:16:22

need to explore play first, to be like, "I want more of that," right?

to childhood: 00:16:27

Again, people who are more top-down learners seem to know more

to childhood: 00:16:30

easily what they're playing for.

to childhood: 00:16:33

Bottom-up players will start playing and then all of a sudden be like, "I think I

to childhood: 00:16:37

want to play for this." But they may not know that from the start, and that's okay.

to childhood: 00:16:40

The goal is just start exploring and see what it is your body longs for more.

Sara: 00:16:45

The three options that you shared—I'm all about what's our default

Sara: 00:16:50

mode and what are our non-default modes, what's our default behavior

Sara: 00:16:53

and our non-default behavior.

Sara: 00:16:54

I just think those, even making people aware of those three options

Sara: 00:16:59

of thinking, or top-down, and feeling, or body, and bottoms-up—that right

Sara: 00:17:06

there gives us things to play with that we might not even thought of.

Sara: 00:17:12

TJ, I just—I'm goose bumpy at how cool your work is.

Sara: 00:17:16

I am so grateful that you were able to take the time.

Sara: 00:17:21

Is there anything you would like to share or anything I didn't

Sara: 00:17:24

ask you that you'd like to share before I let you go for the day?

TJ: 00:17:28

Whew!

TJ: 00:17:28

The pressure is on.

TJ: 00:17:29

My work is called the Playful Revolution, because I believe that re-embracing

TJ: 00:17:33

play is a revolutionary experience within our own bodies and has the

TJ: 00:17:37

capacity to revolutionize our culture.

TJ: 00:17:40

I do believe that play is this path to re-embodying our bodies and creating a

TJ: 00:17:47

more equitable society and culture—one where we can co-create together in a

TJ: 00:17:52

more meaningful and successful way.

TJ: 00:17:55

And so, I do really deeply believe in play, both because people's

TJ: 00:17:58

joy matters and the co-creating and meaningful experience matters.

TJ: 00:18:02

And, I love to play.

TJ: 00:18:03

So if anybody out here has questions, there's free intro calls on my

TJ: 00:18:07

website, I love to answer questions.

TJ: 00:18:09

I love to clarify my work for people.

TJ: 00:18:11

I love to help people enter the work.

TJ: 00:18:14

So don't feel hesitant if you're listening to this to just reach

TJ: 00:18:17

out and be like, "I don't get it." Because you're not alone, right?

TJ: 00:18:21

Play is something that is so deprived, and We don't have a

TJ: 00:18:26

lot of language around this.

TJ: 00:18:27

So if you don't get it, just come back, just keep coming back because

TJ: 00:18:30

you will get it eventually, and let me help you get it in your being.

Sara: 00:18:35

Amazing.

Sara: 00:18:35

So that's T. J. Matton, founder and chief play officer of the Playful Revolution.

Sara: 00:18:41

T. J., I'll put your contact information in the show notes so people can find you.

Sara: 00:18:45

I just can't thank you.

Sara: 00:18:47

This has been so much fun.

TJ: 00:18:48

Please write me back in a little bit and tell me what shifts for you, right?

TJ: 00:18:52

Tell me what shifts for you after this conversation.

TJ: 00:18:54

I love when like it starts to click for people and then people get to

TJ: 00:18:58

start thinking and experiencing their being differently.

TJ: 00:19:01

I'm going to stalk you down in a month or so and be like, "What's happened?"

Sara: 00:19:05

I think one thing that comes through, is I kept thinking of the words,

Sara: 00:19:08

"Don't yuck someone else's yum." Your take on play style reminds us that no one's

Sara: 00:19:14

play style is bad unless it's hurting someone—and that's to be managed—but we

Sara: 00:19:21

can also look at how we all play and just know we're all different, and that's okay.

TJ: 00:19:26

And that there's a bridge between all of us.

TJ: 00:19:27

We may not be able to connect easily with everyone, but there are people

TJ: 00:19:31

that can be bridges between the world.

TJ: 00:19:36

All right, friends.

TJ: 00:19:38

I want to give a huge thank you to TJ for doing these episodes with me.

TJ: 00:19:42

This was so much fun and I learned a ton.

TJ: 00:19:46

I hope you did as well.

TJ: 00:19:48

So TJ, thank you.

TJ: 00:19:49

We can't wait to see you back here on Thinkydoers.

TJ: 00:19:52

You can find more information about TJ and her work at theplayfulrevolution.com.

TJ: 00:19:57

And TJ is @theplayfulrevolution on Instagram, And we'll put all

TJ: 00:20:01

those links in the show notes.

TJ: 00:20:03

And we're going to have a conversation next week with another incredible expert

TJ: 00:20:07

about stuckness and mental health.

TJ: 00:20:09

So be sure to come back next week for a continuation of our

TJ: 00:20:12

focus on mental well being.

TJ: 00:20:14

And then, speaking of fun and healthy play buddies.

TJ: 00:20:17

Are you feeling overwhelmed by conflicting priorities?

TJ: 00:20:21

Are you struggling to achieve the results that you need to in your

TJ: 00:20:25

organization or in your career?

TJ: 00:20:28

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Right now, membership is a hundred dollars off for the full year, just in

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time for you to get help with your Q3, Q4 transition and ramp up for your 2025.

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And with that, you get access to my comprehensive and popular

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Creating No-BS OKRs course, which alone is valued at $495.

TJ: 00:21:02

On top of that, you get a full year of community support and

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live group sessions with me.

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In this program, you will learn and practice externalizing, clarifying

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Have the chance to focus on transforming your work and your

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career to be truly purpose focused.

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Whether you are a solopreneur, a new leader, an entrepreneur,

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or, a key contributing strategic operator in an organization.

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This program will help you move from frustration to focus.

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And from busy work to meaningful measurable outcomes.

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Discount in place and we've got a payment plan option to make it

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easier for you to get the help you need with your Q3, Q4 reset.

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Visit findrc.co/ubyis

TJ: 00:22:07

Thank you for joining and listening.

TJ: 00:22:10

I really can't wait to hear from you about what in this episode resonated,

TJ: 00:22:14

so I would love to hear your feedback.

TJ: 00:22:16

Also, don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter at findrc.co/newsletter, so

TJ: 00:22:24

you can hear about everything happening all at once before the general public.

TJ: 00:22:29

you can find me at Sara Lobkovich pretty much everywhere.

TJ: 00:22:33

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one.

TJ: 00:22:35

You're always invited to contact me by email.

TJ: 00:22:38

The easiest one to spell is sara, S A R A at Thinkydoers.com.

TJ: 00:22:45

If you have other Thinkydoers in your work world, please pass this episode along.

TJ: 00:22:50

We really appreciate your referrals, your mentions, your shares, and your reviews.

TJ: 00:22:56

Thank you for tuning in today.

TJ: 00:22:57

And I look forward to hearing the questions this prompts for you.