The Science of Play with TJ Matton

Sara: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.

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Thinkydoers are those of us drawn to deep work where thinking is working.

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But we don't stop there.

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We're compelled to move the work from insight to idea, through the messy

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middle, to find courage and confidence to put our thoughts into action.

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I'm Sara Lobkovich, and I'm a Thinkydoer.

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I'm here to help others find more satisfaction, less frustration, less

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friction, and more flow in our work.

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My mission is to help changemakers like you transform our workplaces and world.

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So, let's get started.

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All right, listeners.

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I know I always say I'm really excited about my episodes, and it is true.

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I am always really excited.

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But when TJ and I connected on Facebook, I did an actual physical excited

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dance when I saw the words "play" and "mindfulness" together in your bio.

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So, we have a really big treat.

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TJ is joining us for actually two episodes.

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TJ is the founder and chief play officer of the Playful Revolution.

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I'll have her introduce herself and tell you a little bit about

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her background and what she does.

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Today, we're going to get super nerdy about play.

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And then in our second part, which will come out next week, we're

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going to talk about Integrating play as a mindfulness practice.

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And if you hear those words and you're like, "That's not for me,"

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then I want you to come back.

TJ: 00:01:33

It is.

TJ: 00:01:34

Yes, is.

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If you hate the word "mindfulness", come back.

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I promise.

Sara: 00:01:39

TJ, I just can't thank you enough.

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I had so much fun when we pre-met.

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I looked back at the notes on our pre-meet and I was like, "Dang, we could have just

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run with our pre-meet as the episode."

TJ: 00:01:50

I feel like a little cheated sometimes when I know it's gonna be a good like,

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connection and there's so much excitement and spark that happens in those, and I'm

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like, "People need the uncut version!"

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TJ is going to talk about play and neurology of play.

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Also, about types and modes of play.

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So, if you are a listener of Thinkydoers and you hear the word

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"play" and you're like, "This is not for me," this is literally for you.

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That's why we're doing it.

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TJ, I'd just love to have you introduce yourself.

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Tell us who you are, what you do, and what makes you excited to be here.

TJ: 00:02:27

I am a truama therapist here in Annapolis, Maryland,

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and I've been a trauma therapist for adults for about 11 years.

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And about two or three years into my practice, I started working

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with a collection of adults that were parents of young kids.

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I became really intrigued with parents' responses to play, both in their personal

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relationships but also culturally.

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There's this shift to a lot of pressure for parents to play with their kids,

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and I just got very " rabbit hole-y" about play, as probably many of

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the Thinkydoers know what it's like to fall into a good rabbit hole.

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I have just decided to camp out here in the playland, and this now, I am

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now like making my home here, and anybody can come visit, the door is

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open, we welcome visitors anytime.

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So, what I ended up like really falling in love with is the fact that we live

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in a play-deprived culture and that play is a primal drive in the body.

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It's homeostatically regulated the same way that sleep, hunger, and thirst

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is, but we don't have anybody teaching us intuitive play culturally, right?

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So a lot of adults hear things like, That feel like an enormous level

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of pressure, like, "go have fun!

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You need to have more fun in your life!" and then you're like,

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"What the fuck does that mean?

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Where do I start?" Especially if you come from a kind of neurodivergent,

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background where a lot of our fun has been shamed because it like doesn't look

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very coherent, or we fall really deep into rabbit holes that people call obsessive.

TJ: 00:04:03

It's not always like linear or productive.

TJ: 00:04:07

A lot of neurodivergence I found either hyper-protected their play in

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a way that was still shrouded with a little bit of shame, or it was

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something that had become so suppressed.

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So, people were basically either binging on play or restricting play.

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I want people to understand that like play is actually something

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we need to have a really balanced, healthy relationship with, the same

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way we do food, water, and sleep.

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I got really interested in the fact that play is a primal drive, right?

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It is something that we biologically are required to do in our human body.

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How do we begin to redevelop that relationship with it in a

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culture that like just really wants us to be productive?

Sara: 00:04:52

you're gonna have to double click on that one, Mm dude.

Sara: 00:04:55

Ding Ding.

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To me, that play is a drive, just like a hunger or thirst,

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that's a brand new concept me.

Sara: 00:05:05

So tell me a little bit more about that.

TJ: 00:05:08

Play is how we learn everything neurologically, right?

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It's how we develop new neural pathways.

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We know in kids that play is super essential, right?

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Like, how many blocks can I put on top of each other before it falls?

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And then you watch kids repeating that.

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You watch them repeating that.

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And part of play is that there's a repetitive need for it in order for

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us to learn from the experience.

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There's a kind of a balance between novelty and repetitiveness, where

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it has to stay new enough for us to stay engaged, but repetitive

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enough for us to learn from it.

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and this can be a really tricky balance for people.

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But we see, and we know in kids that practice and play are really meaningful

TJ: 00:05:51

in learning new ways of doing things.

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And that doesn't ever change.

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part of what we've seen from a systemic lens is like we've really

TJ: 00:06:02

pushed play out of people's nervous systems, out of their biology in lieu

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of like compliance and coherence to behavioral and thinking standards.

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And so we have driven down uniqueness in the individual in

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order to function as a society.

TJ: 00:06:22

I think that's probably how they would have defended it, but it's not like

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we're functioning very well as a society.

Sara: 00:06:27

They're just systemic realities we live under here that aren't necessarily

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compatible with all of our well-being.

TJ: 00:06:35

Play is this practice of kind of low-risk testing, right?

TJ: 00:06:39

It is really important that it's low-risk enough for the body to

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not end up feeling overly exposed in our vulnerability, right?

TJ: 00:06:48

I always tell people we don't start playing where it matters, right?

TJ: 00:06:52

And we'll talk about this next time—but play as a mindfulness practice.

TJ: 00:06:55

When I'm working with people, like for instance, if you're working on human

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connections —If that's what we're playing for, it's better capacity

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for relationships—I'm not going to start you with your family, right?

TJ: 00:07:06

I'm going to start you with the coffee shop person.

TJ: 00:07:09

Who cares?

TJ: 00:07:10

Just get your coffee and run.

TJ: 00:07:11

So you start playing where it's tingly and exciting and a little bit scary, but it's

TJ: 00:07:17

really important that it's digestible.

TJ: 00:07:20

It's really important that play is something that we can have an

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interactive relationship with, so that again, it's digestible.

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And it's something that we can learn from and integrate from and have a

TJ: 00:07:32

positive, repetitive relationship with where we can consistently increase

TJ: 00:07:38

the challenges as our body is ready.

TJ: 00:07:40

I think one of the things I always want people to understand about

TJ: 00:07:43

play is, again, it is how we neurologically learn new ways.

TJ: 00:07:48

And that never changes.

TJ: 00:07:49

And so when we start to get stuck in patterns within our bodies, which

TJ: 00:07:56

all of us do, play is the way out.

TJ: 00:07:59

And it can be the way out from like a flight mode, but it also

TJ: 00:08:03

is just like the embodied way out.

TJ: 00:08:05

Like you can't shift from one thing to another, one way of thinking,

TJ: 00:08:09

or one way of behaving, one way of doing, without experimenting with

TJ: 00:08:15

like other ways of being and doing.

Sara: 00:08:19

Yeah.

Sara: 00:08:19

It's one of the things that, as an adult educator, I'm hearing

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in what you're saying is that play needs to be sub-threshold.

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It needs to be in the learning zone.

Sara: 00:08:31

If we're over threshold, it's too stressful.

Sara: 00:08:34

I think about I will not play D&D with my family.

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And they are the people who love me, and it is the safest environment on

Sara: 00:08:42

the face of the planet, and they're all rooting for me, and even just saying

Sara: 00:08:46

the words, I am on the verge of a panic response, like it's so stressful me.

Sara: 00:08:53

So, I love that you're pointing out that we don't have to suffer in that.

Sara: 00:08:59

We can find low-risk testing ways to get started.

Sara: 00:09:04

And we will talk about getting started in our second episode.

TJ: 00:09:08

Can I ask you why you won't play with your family?

TJ: 00:09:11

Can we talk a little bit about that?

Sara: 00:09:13

Yeah, I am a born creative.

Sara: 00:09:17

I identify as a creative, but being creative on the spot is my kryptonite.

Sara: 00:09:24

Imagine a scenario... role-plays are enough to make me want to curl

Sara: 00:09:30

up in a ball in corner of the room.

Sara: 00:09:32

And it's why I don't use them in my classes.

Sara: 00:09:35

Like we do a lot of practice, but we practice with real scenarios

Sara: 00:09:39

so people don't have the extra overhead of imagining a scenario.

Sara: 00:09:44

"Imagine a scenario and then play within it" is one more

Sara: 00:09:48

thing than my brain can do.

TJ: 00:09:50

Do you play D&D then like outside or do they play D&D and you won't join?

Sara: 00:09:56

They play D&D, and I'm always invited.

Sara: 00:09:59

And I have tried, like I've sat down at the table and tried and it's

Sara: 00:10:04

just like an absolute nervous system flood, like a overwhelm for me.

TJ: 00:10:10

Yeah, It's like these are the most important people in your life,

TJ: 00:10:13

so theoretically they should be the safest people to experiment with play.

TJ: 00:10:19

But sometimes the safest people are actually really high-risk because

TJ: 00:10:23

we love them so freaking much that the vulnerability is so high.

TJ: 00:10:28

And then if you combine the vulnerability we feel with our most vulnerable people

TJ: 00:10:33

with the vulnerability of a new challenge those sometimes don't match, right?

TJ: 00:10:38

And a lot of what we want to assess with play is like, where are the spaces that

TJ: 00:10:42

shrink my capacity to step out of my zone?

TJ: 00:10:45

And where are the places that expand it?

TJ: 00:10:48

I've always dreamed of creating a D&D game that is more so about your everyday life.

TJ: 00:10:54

Like, "How do you deal with the mountain of laundry?

TJ: 00:10:57

What do you do when you have to pick up three kids at the same time?" And I've

TJ: 00:11:01

always wanted to make a very realistic, epic adventure through an everyday life,

TJ: 00:11:07

of where again, it doesn't require so much imaginative power, and actually,

TJ: 00:11:12

like, you could just use your magic wand to deal with laundry. And then you like

TJ: 00:11:16

step into laundry, you're like, "Oh.

TJ: 00:11:18

let me just do it," Again, that imaginative step for some people is really

TJ: 00:11:22

hard, but also we don't need to imagine epic adventures to be put in a challenge.

TJ: 00:11:30

We face everyday challenges that are stupid and annoying all the time,

TJ: 00:11:35

and I've always wanted to create a D&D game where it's just so boring.

Sara: 00:11:39

I would totally play that game.

TJ: 00:11:41

Okay, That's good to know.

TJ: 00:11:41

I will start finding my creators.

TJ: 00:11:43

Because I've never played D&D, so I don't even know if that's possible.

Sara: 00:11:47

I don't either, because I just shut down the minute

Sara: 00:11:50

anyone starts talking about D&D.

TJ: 00:11:51

I'm currently on for a beginner's community here in my area.

Sara: 00:11:55

Oh, I have friends.

Sara: 00:11:57

I'm sure they know someone.

Sara: 00:11:58

Because they're, the sweetest, most amazing, Geraldine and Rand, I love

Sara: 00:12:01

you, like the most amazing humans

Sara: 00:12:03

— TJ: Those are, like, very epic names, too.

Sara: 00:12:05

They sound like Rand has come straight from Wheel of Time.

Sara: 00:12:08

And if Geraldine is not in Wheel of Time, she probably should be

Sara: 00:12:11

weaved in as epic character in that.

Sara: 00:12:15

They're pretty epic.

Sara: 00:12:16

I'm gonna leave that part in.

Sara: 00:12:18

No, it's, safest, most loving most amazing environment that I could play in I'll ask

Sara: 00:12:23

them for some friendlies in your zone.

Sara: 00:12:26

So one of the things that you said that stood out to me is that play is a

Sara: 00:12:34

balance between novelty and repetition.

Sara: 00:12:38

And my neurodivergent brain is like, "Ding ding." That's very interesting

Sara: 00:12:42

because that's the balance that it takes for my wiring to stay engaged.

Sara: 00:12:48

So can you tell us a little bit more about, how that works or what

Sara: 00:12:53

is it about play that makes it something that's balanced there?

TJ: 00:12:57

Novelty is often something that alerts the nervous system.

TJ: 00:13:02

It puts that fight-or-flight a little bit on alert because it's

TJ: 00:13:06

a moment of uncertainty, right?

TJ: 00:13:08

It's a moment where we're trying to figure out, "Is this moment safe?" This

TJ: 00:13:14

is part of what play is so powerful, also as a nervous system practice.

TJ: 00:13:20

And as something that creates a more expansive and more flexible nervous

TJ: 00:13:23

system is that when we embrace play as a form of really functional practice,

TJ: 00:13:28

we become more adaptable in novel situations, which happen every day, right?

TJ: 00:13:35

Because every day is a new day.

TJ: 00:13:37

And at the same time, we want repetition because it allows us

TJ: 00:13:41

to zone that nervous system down a little bit and engage a little deeper.

TJ: 00:13:46

And so there's this balance of the novelty that turns that hyper, like aliveness

TJ: 00:13:51

on, which can shift a lot of people.

TJ: 00:13:54

into a hypervigilance, right?

TJ: 00:13:57

And so we want to think about play as something that like alerts me, but

TJ: 00:14:01

doesn't shift me into hypervigilance.

TJ: 00:14:03

It shifts me into that what's going on, right?

TJ: 00:14:06

And like, he has that sort of alertness to it without shifting us into hypervigilance

TJ: 00:14:10

in that parasympathetic state.

TJ: 00:14:12

But then when we practice it in repetition, that is

TJ: 00:14:15

what creates belonging.

TJ: 00:14:17

That is what's Oh, like I know how to do this.

TJ: 00:14:20

That is what builds skill, like a sense of skill, belonging, a sense of mastery.

TJ: 00:14:25

and so this combo is really hard.

TJ: 00:14:28

And is like always being toggled a little bit.

TJ: 00:14:31

And which is why also it's so important for us to think

TJ: 00:14:34

about, play across the lifespan.

TJ: 00:14:36

That novelty, that we're in this kind of constant, infinite game of exploring

TJ: 00:14:42

new balances between those things.

TJ: 00:14:45

And one of the things I talk a lot about in my work is many of us are, like,

TJ: 00:14:48

trapped in very repetitive things that, and particularly for neurodivergent

TJ: 00:14:54

brains that are, really intrigued by novelty, that are intrigued who are

TJ: 00:15:00

motivated by interest, but then and are incredibly skilled in certain

TJ: 00:15:05

areas, but then, Struggle and shut down very quickly in things like laundry.

TJ: 00:15:10

To do lists grocery lists.

TJ: 00:15:12

And I think what I always remind people with neurodivergent brains

TJ: 00:15:15

is that it's not that they're not capable of doing these things.

TJ: 00:15:17

It's that the skill and interest isn't aligned.

TJ: 00:15:21

The novelty and repetition isn't aligned.

TJ: 00:15:24

And the absence of interest, the absence of novelty, like, why the hell

TJ: 00:15:30

would you want to do those things?

TJ: 00:15:31

It's very counterintuitive to a neurodivergent brain for many people.

TJ: 00:15:35

And so Many people who struggle with this balance end up becoming thrill seekers,

TJ: 00:15:41

Where they're extraordinarily dependent on novelty because in that like sensory play

TJ: 00:15:45

becomes the place that they play safest.

TJ: 00:15:48

And they really struggle settling into repetitive belonging style of play.

TJ: 00:15:55

While other people will cling very deeply on to repetition And it

TJ: 00:16:01

becomes almost a rigid way of being.

TJ: 00:16:04

Like, I'm only going to order a chicken sandwich every single time.

TJ: 00:16:06

Sort of thing.

TJ: 00:16:08

And can become really rigid without learning to create that

TJ: 00:16:12

flexibility that novelty requires.

Sara: 00:16:16

the reason that we connected in the first place is I am looking for

Sara: 00:16:20

experts who can talk to me about the brain difference between hyperfocus and flow.

Sara: 00:16:28

And we're not going to talk about that, but if anyone knows

Sara: 00:16:30

that expert, send them my way.

Sara: 00:16:32

But in what you just said, that sequence of events from novelty,

Sara: 00:16:37

which is what neurodivergent brains need, sparks curiosity, which is what

Sara: 00:16:43

our brains are really good at, and then gets us into that kind of flow.

Sara: 00:16:48

of play with that, repetition and belonging option or, pursuit of mastery.

Sara: 00:16:55

that is a way of describing behavior that is both really positive and

Sara: 00:17:04

constructive and also completely neurodivergently friendly.

TJ: 00:17:08

when we talk about mastery, I think it's really easy to understand how mastery

TJ: 00:17:11

and productivity can become entangled when they're completely, totally different.

TJ: 00:17:15

part of what I think is really important about play is play

TJ: 00:17:21

always starts with choices.

TJ: 00:17:22

it always starts with choice and it's an embodied experience, it's really

TJ: 00:17:25

important for me to help people understand is that play is not an action.

TJ: 00:17:30

It's an embodied experience.

TJ: 00:17:32

It's an experience of being engaged with something with enjoyment,

TJ: 00:17:35

So fun is a byproduct of play.

TJ: 00:17:38

It's not like a direct hit.

TJ: 00:17:39

It's like one of these things that you're like, Oh, that was fun.

TJ: 00:17:43

But it's actually enjoy, like the embodied experience of being

TJ: 00:17:46

engaged with something and enjoying something is the play experience.

TJ: 00:17:51

And it lives right between that sense of like belonging and aliveness.

TJ: 00:17:55

Like it's that.

TJ: 00:17:56

middle state between those states in the nervous system, the ventral

TJ: 00:18:00

and the parasympathetic state.

Sara: 00:18:01

We could talk all day, my friend I can't wait to write books together.

Sara: 00:18:05

So Is there anything else you want to tell us about the foundations of play before

Sara: 00:18:12

we get into neurology and play types?

TJ: 00:18:15

Yeah.

TJ: 00:18:16

I think that I the primary things that I always want to make sure

TJ: 00:18:19

people understand is again, play as a state within the nervous system.

TJ: 00:18:24

It's an embodied experience.

TJ: 00:18:25

And and it always starts with choice.

TJ: 00:18:28

And we also want to understand is that like how it ends, right?

TJ: 00:18:33

It isn't always our choice, right?

TJ: 00:18:35

many of us grew up in like, Oh, you have ten minutes to play, it's

TJ: 00:18:38

time to come in for dinner, right?

TJ: 00:18:39

We didn't necessarily get to have embodied endings.

TJ: 00:18:42

And this is another thing I see people really experience when they, Come into

TJ: 00:18:47

terms with is again that initiation of play and that closure of play

TJ: 00:18:51

are oftentimes that we have a lot of wounds around our play flows, right?

TJ: 00:18:57

Where and again, people have disruptions in different places of their play, right?

TJ: 00:19:03

Where they don't get to go as deep as they naturally want to, and so they pull

TJ: 00:19:08

back, or they don't know how to initiate, because initiation was not liberated.

TJ: 00:19:13

They don't know how to close, and so they like, stay in stuff too

TJ: 00:19:17

long, or they end too abruptly.

TJ: 00:19:20

a play is like this wave that starts with kind of curiosity and interest

TJ: 00:19:25

and shifts to engagement and then shifts into flow and then comes to

TJ: 00:19:30

that settling and then that rest place.

TJ: 00:19:32

But many of us have not, didn't grow up having space

TJ: 00:19:36

for the whole play flow state.

TJ: 00:19:39

And.

TJ: 00:19:40

Part of this, part of re embracing play is really learning that, whether

TJ: 00:19:43

that be in two minute segments or three, three hour segments.

Sara: 00:19:48

So one of the things there that really stands out to me is.

Sara: 00:19:51

play is also a social activity, or am I wrong about that?

Sara: 00:19:58

Because I even, I hear you describe play starts with choice, and then

Sara: 00:20:02

sometimes we might not have that.

Sara: 00:20:05

The skills around closing out the play cycle and for me, I'm like

Sara: 00:20:09

yeah, I don't read social cues.

Sara: 00:20:11

So I don't know when other people are done playing but that for me even shows that

Sara: 00:20:15

my assumption is that play is a social activity, which I know it is, but play

Sara: 00:20:20

doesn't have to be a social activity.

Sara: 00:20:21

So tell me more about solo play or about whatever it's called

Sara: 00:20:25

when you're playing by yourself.

TJ: 00:20:27

I think people naturally either are really thrive as solo players or parallel

TJ: 00:20:32

players or like collaborative players, And I think, we've seen a big push in giving

TJ: 00:20:38

people spaces for parallel playing, right?

TJ: 00:20:41

Like we love the term body doubles.

TJ: 00:20:44

that's become something that's really real and those are parallel players.

TJ: 00:20:47

Right?

TJ: 00:20:48

People who are just like sort of around.

TJ: 00:20:50

Maybe they're doing the same thing as you, but like maybe they're

TJ: 00:20:52

just around reading a book.

TJ: 00:20:54

Right?

TJ: 00:20:54

and you're like as a way to contain the play.

TJ: 00:20:57

So some people naturally thrive as solo players.

TJ: 00:21:01

this is not from science, but from my own experience with clients, that I

TJ: 00:21:05

find a lot of neurodivergent people are really skilled as solo players because

TJ: 00:21:10

they have been so subjected to masking as a cultural requirement, where they're

TJ: 00:21:17

not actually authentic in their play and group play, and so the place that

TJ: 00:21:20

they are the most authentic and most liberated is in their individualism.

TJ: 00:21:26

And the places then they really need to find unique neurodivergent

TJ: 00:21:30

friendly play communities so that they can they can learn that unmasking,

TJ: 00:21:35

but many neurodivergents that I work with feel safest in solo play.

TJ: 00:21:40

And one of the things we do is we re enhance solo play in their

TJ: 00:21:43

life so that they can start to understand like what play feels like

TJ: 00:21:47

solely within their system, right?

TJ: 00:21:51

But at the end of the day, play does bring us back into social community.

TJ: 00:21:56

So even if I go and play by myself, like we often want that social cue connection

TJ: 00:22:01

afterwards that is Look what I did!

TJ: 00:22:04

Because play inherently does crave that sense of being seen, because it is us.

TJ: 00:22:12

It's our humanness in this like creative, alive way, and we want to be seen.

TJ: 00:22:16

This is part of us, part of our neurological makeup as humans.

TJ: 00:22:21

Is that drive for social connection?

Sara: 00:22:23

I think something else that stands out for me too is wondering

Sara: 00:22:27

about how generational this is, that you start with play starts with choice.

Sara: 00:22:33

when I was growing up.

Sara: 00:22:34

We didn't have choice, like consent, it's one of the highlights of my life has been

Sara: 00:22:40

teaching my stepkids about consent and reparenting myself in the process about

Sara: 00:22:47

consent and that consent is revocable.

Sara: 00:22:49

And even in play, you get to choose, does this feel good?

Sara: 00:22:53

Is this a play partner?

Sara: 00:22:55

Who's a good fit for me?

Sara: 00:22:56

Or is this someone who's hurting me?

Sara: 00:22:58

And I didn't have that growing

TJ: 00:23:01

No.

Sara: 00:23:01

it.

Sara: 00:23:02

We were subjected to a lot without knowing that we could

Sara: 00:23:06

make those choices for ourselves.

Sara: 00:23:08

So you mentioned, finding compatible play partners.

Sara: 00:23:13

Tell me a bit, about play love languages or about types and modes of play.

Sara: 00:23:17

that my listeners might not even be thinking about as play.

TJ: 00:23:21

Yeah.

TJ: 00:23:22

I often think about top-down players and bottom-up players.

TJ: 00:23:26

So I talk about play.

TJ: 00:23:27

in a lot of different ways.

TJ: 00:23:28

And so This is one of the ways I think about it.

TJ: 00:23:31

It's like top-down players, people who like love to problem solve, people

TJ: 00:23:34

who are intellectual players, like puzzle people word game people, right?

TJ: 00:23:40

People who love to organize closets people who, where there's like sort

TJ: 00:23:44

of a start and an end to their play, where there's often like a purpose.

TJ: 00:23:48

to their play.

TJ: 00:23:50

And then I think there's also this framework of like

TJ: 00:23:52

bottom-up players, right?

TJ: 00:23:53

Explorers who like are great at like out of the box sort of thinking.

TJ: 00:23:58

And navigating dark spaces where there's not like, where they don't,

TJ: 00:24:03

these are people who often I think have don't want to be told what to do.

TJ: 00:24:07

Because they're bottom-up experiential players, Versus the kind of top-down

TJ: 00:24:11

players, where more structural play.

TJ: 00:24:14

becomes more natural to them.

TJ: 00:24:16

then the opposite is true, where we want to play with our weaknesses, right?

TJ: 00:24:21

Where we want to spend time in our natural play because it feels good, and

TJ: 00:24:26

it is natural, and it feels like fun.

TJ: 00:24:28

And we wanted to try different varieties as a way to expand

TJ: 00:24:32

and challenge our play profiles.

TJ: 00:24:35

So one of the ways I think of is like this kind of top-down players

TJ: 00:24:38

and these bottom-up players, and where there's closed loops

TJ: 00:24:41

versus wander-y loops of play.

TJ: 00:24:45

And then I also think about the fact that there are brain players, And then

TJ: 00:24:50

there's kind of storyteller players, like people who like play within their

TJ: 00:24:56

with their imagination and then I think theres body players who like really

TJ: 00:25:00

have to have the kinesthetics, like in order to play, So I often talk about

TJ: 00:25:05

the fact that anxiety is a fantastic example of maladaptive play, right?

TJ: 00:25:09

Like anxiety is 100 percent storytelling.

TJ: 00:25:12

It's just, gotten diverted into a protective space.

TJ: 00:25:17

And so it is a really strong example, culturally, of a play a

TJ: 00:25:22

storytelling-play deprived brain, right?

TJ: 00:25:25

I often find people who really struggle with just really low energy some

TJ: 00:25:30

depression, sometimes chronic pain, are actually kinesthetic players.

TJ: 00:25:35

That really crave movement, but they may have only been exposed to linear movement.

TJ: 00:25:41

Do it this way, and then they're like, I don't want to!

TJ: 00:25:44

So their body starts to shut down.

TJ: 00:25:46

That was me for a very long time.

TJ: 00:25:48

And then I think a lot of times some of the patterns I see for intellectual

TJ: 00:25:51

players is that they get seen as controlling, instead of some head high

TJ: 00:25:57

energy rigid in their thinking, because they actually have really intuitive

TJ: 00:26:04

frameworks around predictive problem solving, around predictive creativity.

TJ: 00:26:09

And when that is not given enough space, we try, our bodies are always trying

TJ: 00:26:14

to engage in these kind of play flows.

TJ: 00:26:16

that get stuck when we're not identifying our personal patterns of play.

TJ: 00:26:23

And so I often find that people there is a inner Entanglement between

TJ: 00:26:28

their play deprivation and their play styles and, like, where they're,

TJ: 00:26:33

like, mental health wise struggling or just lifestyle struggling.

TJ: 00:26:38

again, play is a very anti ABA, right?

TJ: 00:26:41

There's no expectation that you would behave or perform a

TJ: 00:26:44

certain way as a result of play.

TJ: 00:26:47

It is really, truly about liberating the best of our humanness.

TJ: 00:26:52

And that's gonna look different for everybody.

Sara: 00:26:54

You're blowing my mind.

TJ: 00:26:56

Good!

TJ: 00:26:57

I want people to really understand and feel play as a different

TJ: 00:27:01

thing than Like, frivolous whimsical, joker-y style of play.

TJ: 00:27:09

Because that is such a small quantity of players.

Sara: 00:27:13

It's just such a revolutionary thought that play is a space to be

Sara: 00:27:22

embodied exactly as you are whether it's with yourself or with other people who

Sara: 00:27:28

are not judging or evaluating, they are also regulated and in that zone with you.

TJ: 00:27:35

let me pull something out that you just said.

TJ: 00:27:38

Because when we're in play, we're not exactly regulated.

TJ: 00:27:41

We are a little bit scared.

TJ: 00:27:42

And we are judging and we are evaluating.

TJ: 00:27:45

And I think this is part of we are on when we are playing, right?

TJ: 00:27:49

Like it would make no sense to go to a soccer game and not judge

TJ: 00:27:52

the other players on the field and not to judge your other teammates.

TJ: 00:27:57

Like absolutely.

TJ: 00:27:58

Like judgment is a big part of play, right?

TJ: 00:28:00

That's a big part of who's the best passer.

TJ: 00:28:03

Who's the best receiver.

TJ: 00:28:04

Who do I want to compete against?

TJ: 00:28:05

so we're not super regulated.

TJ: 00:28:07

We're not in that social rest and digest.

TJ: 00:28:09

it's like there's an alive experimentation.

TJ: 00:28:11

There's a high level of vulnerability in play.

TJ: 00:28:14

And this is why it's so critical to assess for safety.

TJ: 00:28:17

For play because it's super vulnerable one of the things that's so powerful to

TJ: 00:28:21

me in learning about play And so when we talk about leveling the playing

TJ: 00:28:25

field and that's a real thing There's a beautiful story about this like hiker

TJ: 00:28:30

who was in the woods with his dog and this bear Came out of the woods and

TJ: 00:28:35

was like clearly malnourished and this his dog rushed to the bear and he got

TJ: 00:28:40

so scared that this bear was going to maul his dog and it said both animals

TJ: 00:28:45

Like took on the play bodies, right?

TJ: 00:28:48

The dogs go like kind of chest down butt up and wiggle, And the bears like

TJ: 00:28:54

go up like this belly forward, right?

TJ: 00:28:57

This is an incredibly vulnerable place to be And so like in order to play we

TJ: 00:29:04

both have to abandon the power structure while also stepping in to empowerment.

TJ: 00:29:10

And so this is what's so important about co creating a play

TJ: 00:29:13

experience is co creating a power structure that works for people.

TJ: 00:29:18

And this is also why I think play as a social revolutionary practice is that if

TJ: 00:29:22

we learn how to be better play buddies, we build a more equitable education system,

TJ: 00:29:26

social justice system, financial system, where everybody has a chance to play.

Sara: 00:29:29

what I'm hearing is the emphasis you're putting is on that all hinges

Sara: 00:29:35

on the safety, it's because even like thinking about the way I talked

Sara: 00:29:40

about it, for me to feel safe, it has to be sub-threshold, when really,

Sara: 00:29:48

that's not play, it's sub-threshold.

TJ: 00:29:51

I'm gonna be a little scared.

Sara: 00:29:54

this is so important, I wanted You to talk to my listeners

Sara: 00:29:59

because we're not all the same.

Sara: 00:30:01

Everybody who listens here is different, I was a mini old person.

Sara: 00:30:05

I am a top-down, big brain, all the thinking have a

Sara: 00:30:09

hard time with social cues.

Sara: 00:30:11

All the list goes on.

Sara: 00:30:13

And I've done all the therapy for years, and what you talk about is,

Sara: 00:30:21

this is wild what I'm going to say, what you talk about, I feel in my

Sara: 00:30:28

body, which I never say in therapy, that's not something, I've had all the

Sara: 00:30:32

therapy to what does your body say?

Sara: 00:30:34

And my body says it doesn't say, but when you talk about play this way, My body

TJ: 00:30:41

Turns on.

Sara: 00:30:42

and that's not something that I have in other settings, so I'm just

Sara: 00:30:48

really excited to have more people hear about what you're doing, and then

Sara: 00:30:55

also the other side of that is then we're not in control of other people's

Sara: 00:31:02

responses or reactions or judgments, but we are in control of what we consent

Sara: 00:31:08

to and when we can revoke consent.

Sara: 00:31:12

And so I think that's a really important piece too, to say it is really vulnerable,

Sara: 00:31:17

or it is just the right amount vulnerable.

TJ: 00:31:20

and that eventually the greatest relationships come with like, yo,

TJ: 00:31:24

that response did not land right.

TJ: 00:31:26

Conflict is a form of play and that is what we really need as a culture

TJ: 00:31:32

is not to be forced to share, like not to be, keep it all ourselves, but to

TJ: 00:31:38

enter this conflict based relationship because there is, conflict is this form

TJ: 00:31:43

of there is something that is in you and within me that like deserves to meet

TJ: 00:31:50

and share and to learn from each other.

Sara: 00:31:53

it's one of my favorite quotes is from a book, and it's something

Sara: 00:31:56

along the lines of living beings need something to push off of.

Sara: 00:32:00

Yes

Sara: 00:32:01

I first,

TJ: 00:32:02

Oh my God.

TJ: 00:32:03

I love that quote.

Sara: 00:32:04

I'll send it to you, like I first read it in a conflict resolution

Sara: 00:32:08

training and it, life changing.

Sara: 00:32:11

So before we get into part two, is there anything else you want

Sara: 00:32:15

to share with us foundationally?

TJ: 00:32:17

I just want to highlight I think there's a lot of people who get that

TJ: 00:32:22

experience where you've had therapists ask you like, how does that feel in your body?

TJ: 00:32:25

But if you're a top-down person, like that question's not going to resonate,

TJ: 00:32:30

but that doesn't mean we can't get.

TJ: 00:32:32

to the body through play, right?

TJ: 00:32:35

And that again, we have this sort of framework right now in

TJ: 00:32:39

trauma work where it's all about bottom-up work and somatic work and

TJ: 00:32:42

experiential work, which is my base.

TJ: 00:32:45

I love working with in that way.

TJ: 00:32:47

And coming from that direction is not the only way to get into the body.

TJ: 00:32:52

And so like, yes, like I, it, it made me truly emotional for you to like, be able

TJ: 00:32:56

to notice like, Oh, play is in the body.

TJ: 00:33:00

Shoot.

TJ: 00:33:01

I can feel things.

TJ: 00:33:02

Damn it!

TJ: 00:33:03

She trapped me.

TJ: 00:33:04

She trapped me

Sara: 00:33:06

Live therapy on the podcast.

Sara: 00:33:09

alright, so that's where we're gonna end our first conversation and then

Sara: 00:33:14

come back next week because next week's episode is about putting what we've

Sara: 00:33:17

talked about today into practice.

Sara: 00:33:19

So thank you so much, TJ.

Sara: 00:33:21

I can't wait to see you next week.

Sara: 00:33:23

Thank you for joining and listening.

Sara: 00:33:25

I really can't wait to hear from you about what in this episode resonated,

Sara: 00:33:30

so I would love to hear your feedback.

Sara: 00:33:32

Also, don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter at findrc.co/newsletter, so

Sara: 00:33:39

you can hear about everything happening all at once before the general public.

Sara: 00:33:44

you can find

Sara: 00:33:45

me at Sara Lobkovich pretty much everywhere.

Sara: 00:33:48

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one.

Sara: 00:33:50

You're always invited to contact me by email.

Sara: 00:33:54

The easiest one to spell is sara, S A R A at Thinkydoers.com.

Sara: 00:34:00

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Sara: 00:34:06

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Sara: 00:34:11

Thank you for tuning in today.

Sara: 00:34:13

And I look forward to hearing the questions this prompts for you.