Ep 43 - Building Inclusive Communities: Finding Connection Without Social Anxiety

Sara: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.

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Thinkydoers are those of us drawn to deep work where thinking is

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working — but we don't stop there.

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We're compelled to move the work from insight to idea, through the messy

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middle, to find courage and confidence to put our thoughts into action.

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I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich.

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I'm a strategy coach, a huge goal-setting and attainment nerd, and board-certified

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health and wellness coach, working at the overlap of work, life well-being.

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I'm also a Thinkydoer.

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I'm here to help others find more satisfaction, less frustration, less

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friction, and more flow in our work.

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My mission is to help changemakers like you transform our workplaces and world.

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So let's get started

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Hello, friends.

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Today I am very excited to bring you a conversation with Carrie Melissa

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Jones, community strategist, author and founder of the CMJ Community.

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What makes this episode especially intriguing is that Carrie has built

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her career around creating spaces for connection and community, while also

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navigating her own social anxiety.

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If you've ever felt that community spaces aren't for you because you're

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introverted, shy, neurodivergent, or just sensitive, this episode

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might change your perspective.

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We will explore what makes communities safe and accessible for different thinking

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and sensory styles, the power of quiet communities, and how belonging can

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happen even without active participation.

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Carrie will also share practical advice for both community

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participants and those considering building their own communities.

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So whether you are a self-proclaimed lone wolf like me or someone wrestling

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with how to create connection on your own terms, this conversation offers

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insights that just might surprise you.

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All right.

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I am super excited to have Carrie Melissa Jones here with me today.

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Carrie and I met through Jamar Diggs' Low Lift Club.

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What we're gonna be talking about today is community and community building,

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in the context of being a Thinkydoer, maybe someone who isn't necessarily

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wired for networking and connection.

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I participated in her community and was so impressed with your rigor.

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I know how busy you are, and I'm super excited to have you here today.

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So go ahead and tell people who you are and what you do.

Carrie: 00:02:41

I'm so excited to be having this conversation.

Carrie: 00:02:44

When you explained who a Thinkydoer is, I was like, yes, that's me.

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I am Carrie Melissa Jones.

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I am the co-author of the book, right over my shoulder, Building

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Brand Communities with Charles Vogl.

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And I'm a community strategist, community builder, and researcher of

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belonging and connection, and what that means, especially what it means on the

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internet, as confusing as that maybe.

Carrie: 00:03:08

I help people all day long connect both online and offline.

Sara: 00:03:12

That right there is a perfect opening, because so many of us who

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are introverted or neurodivergent or sensitive or autistic, have

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different sensory needs, wind up doing so much of our connecting online.

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I just did naturally, and then now knowing what I do about my wiring,

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it makes perfect sense, because I can regulate myself with people

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online, compared to all those motor neurons firing when we're in person

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and everything that comes into play.

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But I'd love to hear, how did you start doing this work?

Carrie: 00:03:46

Yeah.

Carrie: 00:03:47

What you just shared is pretty much much me to a T, especially as teenager.

Carrie: 00:03:52

I did not have the language then for why my social anxiety was as high as it was.

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I just knew that I felt like I literally could not use my voice sometimes.

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Like, I was too afraid to speak, because everything was just happening around me.

Carrie: 00:04:05

And so, yes, exactly like you mentioned, I discovered online forums, this is

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pre-Facebook, pre-MySpace, all that.

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And I discovered that there were places where people were connecting around

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all kinds of topics, from motorcycles to music, that was my big thing.

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And you could meet people from all over the world and I did not know this at

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the time, but it was absolutely for me about self-regulation and being able

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to take in what people were saying and process it, and then think, okay, what

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is my thoughtful contribution to this?

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And/or what do I feel safe sharing in this space that I can't share anywhere else?

Carrie: 00:04:40

I didn't realize that doing that as a teenager was gonna

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open up my career, but it did.

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And then I got into doing this professionally.

Carrie: 00:04:47

I used to work mostly in tech, also in publishing.

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And there were all kinds of folks who, for the first time, we're trying to

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do work on the internet at the same time and needed a steward, needed

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someone to help them to connect and do their work more effectively.

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And so I discovered that this job title of "community manager" existed.

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And then when I discovered that, I was like, this is my life's work.

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I just decided one day, this is what I want to do.

Carrie: 00:05:11

And I've been doing it ever since.

Carrie: 00:05:13

Went to grad school to study it, all that stuff.

Carrie: 00:05:15

So yeah, I'm just a huge nerd about this topic.

Sara: 00:05:18

That's so awesome.

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It's wild to meet other folks who've been at it that long.

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know there are a lot of us, but you just look so young to be as old as I am.

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So tell me a little bit more, you mentioned social anxiety, if you're

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comfortable talking about that, I'd love for you to share a bit.

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I think there's so much overlap between different neurodivergences

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and anxiety and other mental health issues, and social anxiety.

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So me a little bit more about how social anxiety has affected you and your career

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and the choice to do this for work.

Carrie: 00:05:53

I feel like until I was probably in my mid-twenties, I contorted my

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entire career around my social anxiety.

Carrie: 00:06:00

What were the ways in which I could avoid social interaction?

Carrie: 00:06:04

Even though I'm very socially anxious, I'm also very driven.

Carrie: 00:06:06

It's like, how can I still advance in my career, was the question I was

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holding — but without having to do the scary things like get up on stage and

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talk and host meetup events where I bring together strangers and things like that.

Carrie: 00:06:19

Actually, one of the seminal moments of my life was I went and I lived in New

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Zealand for a year, and I lived on farms.

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And I worked on farms and met people from all over the world.

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And I was forced, through exposure, essentially exposure

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therapy, just over and over again.

Carrie: 00:06:35

Carrie, you're gonna have to have conversations with people who maybe,

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like, for whom English is not their first language, and you're gonna have

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to really zone in on how to connect with folks from all over the world.

Carrie: 00:06:46

And so that opened that up for me, and I realized that it was a skill

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that I developed, opening up to people and getting them to open up to me.

Carrie: 00:06:51

And so, I started to open up this possibility that my career did not have

Carrie: 00:06:55

to mean me hiding for my entire career.

Carrie: 00:06:58

But a lot of my early career was behind the scenes, behind the

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curtain, not sharing a lot of myself.

Carrie: 00:07:05

I've just, over many years, step by step, have opened up more and more.

Carrie: 00:07:09

I try now not to let my career be designed by avoidance of social interaction.

Carrie: 00:07:14

I'm more just aware of it.

Carrie: 00:07:15

And then when I choose to, then I can challenge myself with an opportunity

Carrie: 00:07:19

to get out of my comfort zone.

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This is gonna be one of those episodes where we're just, like,

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totally twinning the whole time.

Carrie: 00:07:27

Yes, please.

Sara: 00:07:29

So, some people might be surprised to hear someone who wrestles with social

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anxiety chose community as a career.

Sara: 00:07:37

Tell me a bit about what community means to you, and a little bit more

Sara: 00:07:41

about how this wound up what you do, despite your social anxiety.

Carrie: 00:07:46

So what community means to me is a group of people who care

Carrie: 00:07:50

about one another's, welfare, who actually care about one another

Carrie: 00:07:53

beyond just making a sale or finishing a transaction of some sort.

Carrie: 00:07:59

And they say that we create the things that we most need to heal

Carrie: 00:08:03

within ourselves, and I think that's 100% what I have done.

Carrie: 00:08:07

I have been very afraid of connection, and so that's something

Carrie: 00:08:11

that's needed to heal within me.

Carrie: 00:08:13

And so now, I consider a lot of my life's work is: how do we create

Carrie: 00:08:17

spaces in which it is safer to have the courage to connect with other people?

Carrie: 00:08:23

For me, it's about navigating and working with the challenges that I've always

Carrie: 00:08:26

had, and then I now have a deep level of empathy for anyone who's feeling that,

Carrie: 00:08:31

and now I can design for those folks and to make sure that they feel included and

Carrie: 00:08:36

make sure that if they would like to, there's an invitation to them to deepen,

Carrie: 00:08:40

or they can stay in the background and just watch, because that's okay too.

Carrie: 00:08:43

Those are all things that are very important to me.

Carrie: 00:08:45

And growing up, I always saw community as being like, it's

Carrie: 00:08:48

the loudest people in the room.

Carrie: 00:08:49

It's people who have no fear of speaking up around a big conference table.

Carrie: 00:08:53

Now, that's not what it means to me at all.

Carrie: 00:08:55

It's what happens in the quiet moments, in the small interactions,

Carrie: 00:08:59

in the constant showing up.

Sara: 00:09:02

One of the things I loved about your community versus other online

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communities I've been in is just how calm.

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It's not pressure to do anything or to engage in any certain way.

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So you have really cultivated that skillset for creating places that

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do feel safer or like people can engage in the way that fits them.

Sara: 00:09:22

How did you develop those practices?

Carrie: 00:09:24

Yeah, it's a combination of what I've developed over many years through my

Carrie: 00:09:28

empathy, but also through research that I've done and research that I've read

Carrie: 00:09:32

about social anxiety and communication apprehension and things like that.

Carrie: 00:09:36

What you're referring to is like what we call a quiet community,

Carrie: 00:09:39

and that's not for everybody.

Carrie: 00:09:40

Some people wanna be surrounded by noise and liveliness all the time.

Carrie: 00:09:45

But it's been a really conscious decision for us to say: actually,

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we want you to come here when.

Carrie: 00:09:51

You feel like you are ready to receive support, and we don't want you coming

Carrie: 00:09:56

here just because we have pinged you or sent you an email or reminded you for the

Carrie: 00:10:00

15th time, There's a certain amount of that we must do in order to ensure that

Carrie: 00:10:04

people are aware of all the benefits of being a member, but we're never creating

Carrie: 00:10:08

engagement for engagement's sake.

Carrie: 00:10:10

I always steer folks clear of that.

Carrie: 00:10:12

Any kind of engagement you're trying to create in your community, it

Carrie: 00:10:14

needs to be meaningful engagement, which means it needs to connect

Carrie: 00:10:17

people to one of two things, other people who are going to help them on

Carrie: 00:10:21

their journey, or to their purpose.

Carrie: 00:10:23

Why did I join this in the first place, and how is this engagement

Carrie: 00:10:27

I'm now being invited into helping me make progress toward that purpose?

Sara: 00:10:31

So if you think about two different constituencies, the people who think

Sara: 00:10:35

that community is not for them because they're shy or introverted or socially

Sara: 00:10:40

anxious, what would you say to folks like that, either to challenge that belief

Sara: 00:10:43

or to help them see things differently about community and connection?

Carrie: 00:10:48

A lot of people just say, "I'm not a joiner. I don't join things." And

Carrie: 00:10:50

they, I think they tend to over-identify with that as part of their identity.

Carrie: 00:10:54

Like, "I'm just not a person that joins things." I would challenge anyone who

Carrie: 00:10:58

thinks "I can't join an organization or join a community that I want to be part

Carrie: 00:11:00

of because X, Y, and Z reasons" — I would challenge anyone who's kind of having

Carrie: 00:11:03

that knee-jerk reaction to ask themselves: maybe I'm not someone who joins a lot

Carrie: 00:11:08

of things, but is this something that's gonna help me grow in a way that would,

Carrie: 00:11:12

it might sound kind of cheesy, but grow in a way that I would be proud of?

Carrie: 00:11:15

And that doesn't mean you have to join 15 things.

Carrie: 00:11:17

Join one thing that could be life-changing.

Carrie: 00:11:19

To join one community in which you decide to contribute and commit.

Carrie: 00:11:24

The other thing is that, yeah, I will just confirm that not

Carrie: 00:11:26

all communities are made equal.

Carrie: 00:11:30

Someone created them because they heard from somebody else

Carrie: 00:11:34

that they should start one.

Carrie: 00:11:35

And it's not like that deep drive to create something that do

Carrie: 00:11:39

didn't exist in the world before.

Carrie: 00:11:41

So yeah, there's a lot of bad communities out there that are

Carrie: 00:11:43

probably not worth your time.

Carrie: 00:11:45

But if you can be choosy about it and careful about it and deliberate about

Carrie: 00:11:50

it, there's a community out there.

Carrie: 00:11:51

And if it does not exist, then you can create it.

Carrie: 00:11:54

if there's a place that you wish existed, why not be the person that starts that?

Sara: 00:11:59

I am so much not a joiner that I don't even identify as not a

Sara: 00:12:03

joiner, I identify as a lone wolf.

Sara: 00:12:05

Like, firmly in the individual context.

Sara: 00:12:08

But I spent last week with a client, with their whole organization

Sara: 00:12:12

for their annual offsite.

Sara: 00:12:14

And then I went right from there to Atlanta for one of our MotoAmerica race

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rounds, and we had a full team this time.

Sara: 00:12:20

It's the most people we've ever managed for a one-bike program with our team.

Sara: 00:12:25

And I had, I wouldn't say loneliness, I felt alone after leaving those

Sara: 00:12:33

physical spaces with groups of people where I felt belonging.

Sara: 00:12:37

I've been here all by myself.

Sara: 00:12:38

And I was shocked.

Sara: 00:12:40

I love being by myself.

Sara: 00:12:41

But I love that belonging is one of the elements that you center also,

Sara: 00:12:46

because a lot of us, especially with neurodivergence or social anxiety, spend

Sara: 00:12:51

so much time masking that then we might not be putting our feelings or needs of

Sara: 00:12:57

belonging first, because we're trying to figure out everybody else's needs.

Sara: 00:13:00

So, you mentioned safety in communities.

Sara: 00:13:03

For us, my listeners, this kind of cognitive and personality and sensory

Sara: 00:13:09

style, who is attracted to this podcast: how might people tell safe or unsafe,

Sara: 00:13:16

or more belonging versus less a fit kind of community from each other?

Sara: 00:13:21

Is there anything that you would tell people to watch for?

Carrie: 00:13:23

Yeah.

Carrie: 00:13:24

a couple things, and I'll caveat all of this with: belonging

Carrie: 00:13:28

is in the eye of the beholder.

Carrie: 00:13:29

So what works for one person might not work for another.

Carrie: 00:13:33

and I can even go back to my own statement about communities being bad.

Carrie: 00:13:35

Well, who gets to determine that?

Carrie: 00:13:37

I'm not the ultimate arbiter of a good and bad community.

Carrie: 00:13:40

But I think the most important thing to do when entering into

Carrie: 00:13:43

any community, including an online one, is to check your own body and

Carrie: 00:13:47

your responses to what's happening.

Carrie: 00:13:50

So in a lot of communities, you'll join and then you'll just

Carrie: 00:13:53

be like, dropped into a space.

Carrie: 00:13:55

And then you're trying to look around and you feel really disoriented.

Carrie: 00:13:58

That can be in a physical room that you're in, where you're like, "Where do

Carrie: 00:14:01

I go next?" Like, I just put my name tag on, but now I have no idea where to sit.

Carrie: 00:14:04

I usually will just gravitate toward any kind of food at that point.

Carrie: 00:14:07

Just, "Okay, where's the food?" Or even in an online community, you're like,

Carrie: 00:14:11

"Okay, well now which section do I go to and how do I make friends here?" So

Carrie: 00:14:16

just being really aware of what's going on and what might have been designed

Carrie: 00:14:20

either intentionally or not intentionally.

Carrie: 00:14:22

And going where you feel calm I think is really important.

Carrie: 00:14:26

If I feel anxious in a space and I can't find a way to regulate

Carrie: 00:14:31

myself unless I leave it, that's the information that I need to know if

Carrie: 00:14:34

I should continue to show up or not.

Carrie: 00:14:36

There's lots to uncover underneath that, but I think that's the most

Carrie: 00:14:39

important piece is just being aware of your own body's reactions to

Carrie: 00:14:43

the communities you're part of.

Sara: 00:14:44

One of the patterns I notice in myself is I get so hyped up and anxious

Sara: 00:14:49

about, especially group events and things like that where I don't know,

Sara: 00:14:52

people or unfamiliar kind of gatherings, that my interoceptors or my body

Sara: 00:14:58

awareness is not good to begin with.

Sara: 00:15:00

And so then it just goes right out the window.

Sara: 00:15:02

So that is a really good reminder that there are some tools in

Sara: 00:15:06

my toolkit for checking back in with myself when I have that.

Sara: 00:15:10

I went to a YouTube creator event a few weeks ago here in Seattle where

Sara: 00:15:14

I didn't know anybody, except one, my former hairstylist was, and my social

Sara: 00:15:19

skills are very rusty post pandemic.

Sara: 00:15:22

They definitely eroded during the pandemic because I wasn't forced to

Sara: 00:15:26

do group gatherings and be in person.

Sara: 00:15:28

But the funny thing about that event was I just named.

Sara: 00:15:33

it.

Sara: 00:15:33

I just was like, "Yeah, I'm really shy.

Sara: 00:15:35

I'm a super big introvert.

Sara: 00:15:36

You all do cool stuff on YouTube.

Sara: 00:15:38

I talk about goal setting." And just like, instead of trying to be confident

Sara: 00:15:44

or whatever we're supposed to be in those situations, I just named it.

Sara: 00:15:48

And every single person I talked to said, "Oh, I'm an introvert too."

Carrie: 00:15:53

Yeah.

Sara: 00:15:53

So it's all out there pretending extroverted in social gatherings

Sara: 00:15:58

when we could just be ourselves.

Sara: 00:15:59

And then again, like, that's how we find that belonging is by being

Sara: 00:16:03

ourselves, letting that show.

Sara: 00:16:04

So, let's switch gears and talk about people who have created communities or who

Sara: 00:16:09

do actively aspire to create communities.

Sara: 00:16:12

What would you say to shy or socially.

Sara: 00:16:16

anxious folks who decide they want to take on community creation?

Sara: 00:16:20

Do you have any recommended places to start?

Carrie: 00:16:22

I've written a book about it.

Carrie: 00:16:23

So I would say check out Building Brand Communities.

Sara: 00:16:26

And your community?

Carrie: 00:16:27

And my community, the CMJ Community, where we share the frameworks

Carrie: 00:16:31

around community building and instead of just saying, "Okay, I think I'm gonna

Carrie: 00:16:34

build a community. Now I'm gonna go build it," we have a structure and a process

Carrie: 00:16:37

to help you to step back and think really deeply before you do create it.

Carrie: 00:16:41

And say, "Who do I want to gather?

Carrie: 00:16:43

What do they have in common?

Carrie: 00:16:44

What needs to be special about this space that I can't find anywhere else?

Carrie: 00:16:48

And what else might already be out there also that I might be able to

Carrie: 00:16:51

lean on, partner with, whatever else." So that's a big resource. But the one

Carrie: 00:16:56

thing that I see happening over and over again with a lot of creators and

Carrie: 00:16:59

entrepreneurs who start communities is they think, "Oh, I started a community.

Carrie: 00:17:03

Now I have to be available 24/7.".

Carrie: 00:17:05

Speaking of myself, I can dissociate really easily, especially

Carrie: 00:17:08

if I'm online for too long.

Carrie: 00:17:09

As someone with social anxiety, I need to know that.

Carrie: 00:17:13

I don't have to give everything of myself and more to run a community.

Carrie: 00:17:17

And so I tell this to our clients all the time, is just you get to decide.

Carrie: 00:17:22

If this community only meets live once a quarter, hey, guess what?

Carrie: 00:17:26

You get to decide I had a client recently say, " I'm gonna give up every Saturday

Carrie: 00:17:30

for the next six months to do office hours with my community." And I asked her, I was

Carrie: 00:17:34

like, "Is that what you really wanna be doing every Saturday morning for the next

Carrie: 00:17:37

six months?" She's like, "No, but that's like the only time people can meet."

Carrie: 00:17:40

And I said, "Well, that doesn't sound a time like when you should be meeting.

Carrie: 00:17:43

You know, if that's not bringing you energy, maybe once a month you

Carrie: 00:17:45

do that." And she's like, "Wait, so I don't have to be available all

Carrie: 00:17:49

the time?" No, you pick the rules.

Carrie: 00:17:51

That's the great thing about running the community, is you get to create the

Carrie: 00:17:53

world that you wish existed, even if it's just like one little, tiny world.

Carrie: 00:17:56

That's your little tiny world that you get to set the rules for.

Carrie: 00:17:59

And sure, like in collaboration with and in connection with others, you

Carrie: 00:18:02

don't have to give everything of yourself, and then more than that.

Sara: 00:18:06

So I am a professional community manager going back as long as you.

Sara: 00:18:11

Large brand community management in the very early internet days

Sara: 00:18:15

through till about 2010, 2011.

Sara: 00:18:18

And I learned more in 30 days in your community about setting up a community

Sara: 00:18:24

for success, on community management and creating safety and belonging, than in

Sara: 00:18:30

my entire career of community management.

Sara: 00:18:34

I ultimately decided that managing a community was not for me while

Sara: 00:18:39

I was putting the book together.

Sara: 00:18:40

And and so it was the best thing ever because I could see it well done.

Sara: 00:18:43

And see, "This is not right thing for me right now. It will be sometime."

Sara: 00:18:49

But it was just so cool to see it done so well and learn so much just

Sara: 00:18:54

from a month or two in your community.

Sara: 00:18:57

I'm really careful about recommending communities and spaces, especially

Sara: 00:19:01

online communities, because they can be so challenging and sometimes

Sara: 00:19:05

hurtful, sometimes harmful.

Sara: 00:19:06

But yours is one that I can just unqualifiably recommend.

Carrie: 00:19:11

Oh, thank you.

Sara: 00:19:11

I'm thinking about like your research brain and what you've

Sara: 00:19:15

learned technically about community.

Sara: 00:19:17

Is there anything that you think would surprise people in the research?

Carrie: 00:19:23

there's so much, actually, I don't know where to begin.

Carrie: 00:19:29

And I say that because so much of the conventional wisdom or what

Carrie: 00:19:32

we think is true about being in connection with others is wrong.

Carrie: 00:19:36

And if that weren't the case, if it were the case that our conventional

Carrie: 00:19:39

wisdom about connection was spot on 100% of the time, then we would not be

Carrie: 00:19:43

living in the loneliest era of American history, and world history in many cases.

Carrie: 00:19:48

And we wouldn't be living in one of the most disconnected times

Carrie: 00:19:51

in at least American history.

Carrie: 00:19:52

I don't wanna speak on behalf of other cultures.

Carrie: 00:19:54

So much of what we think about community is just not what the

Carrie: 00:19:58

neuroscience has to say about it.

Carrie: 00:20:00

It's not what the social psychology has to say about it.

Carrie: 00:20:04

We just did some primary research as a team, and we just found that

Carrie: 00:20:07

this very large organization, they have a community that feels an

Carrie: 00:20:10

extremely high sense of belonging.

Carrie: 00:20:12

We actually ran a surveying project with them, very high belonging across

Carrie: 00:20:15

the organization, with a couple of segments that disagreed, that they

Carrie: 00:20:19

did not feel a sense of belonging.

Carrie: 00:20:20

But what we learned is that they didn't necessarily always say that, "Because

Carrie: 00:20:25

I feel a sense of belonging, "I want to participate more," or, "I want to

Carrie: 00:20:28

participate more because I have a sense of belonging." They're actually saying,

Carrie: 00:20:31

" I feel a sense of belonging because by affiliating with this organization

Carrie: 00:20:35

and showing up in whatever way I can, that one, it's accepted and there's no

Carrie: 00:20:40

judgment about my participation, and two, I feel able to deepen more into

Carrie: 00:20:45

my identity and values around this thing, around the community's topic.

Carrie: 00:20:49

And that, in and of itself, is important to me." This goes back

Carrie: 00:20:52

to our concept of a quiet community and why that's so important.

Carrie: 00:20:56

A quiet community is actually saying, "You don't have to do anything

Carrie: 00:20:58

differently or be anything different than who you already are and what you're

Carrie: 00:21:02

already doing in order to be accepted here." Simply joining an organization

Carrie: 00:21:06

and just being an observer of it.

Carrie: 00:21:08

I think you can still feel a sense of belonging there.

Carrie: 00:21:10

And especially like, my social needs are not that high for myself personally.

Carrie: 00:21:13

Like, I also love to spend time alone.

Carrie: 00:21:16

I have a handful of very close friends, and if I only ever saw them for

Carrie: 00:21:21

like months at a time, I'd be okay.

Carrie: 00:21:23

My spouse is the t otal opposite, and if he doesn't have like his

Carrie: 00:21:26

bar nights out with strangers, he he goes a little haywire.

Carrie: 00:21:30

Being part of a community does not mean having to contribute everything.

Carrie: 00:21:33

It just means saying, " Hey, this is important to me, and I'm gonna bring

Carrie: 00:21:37

it in as part of my life." That doesn't mean I have to practice every part of it.

Sara: 00:21:41

That is so interesting to hear about the power just of affiliation and like

Sara: 00:21:47

connection, even without participation.

Sara: 00:21:49

That's wild.

Sara: 00:21:50

To hear you talk about that.

Carrie: 00:21:52

Yeah.

Carrie: 00:21:52

It's so important.

Carrie: 00:21:53

There's research on, this is common knowledge at this point, but there's

Carrie: 00:21:56

mass distrust of all kinds of organizations, from small community

Carrie: 00:22:00

organizations to obviously for-profit enterprises and everything else.

Carrie: 00:22:04

So the need to affiliate is very strong, and yet the distrust of affiliation

Carrie: 00:22:09

with different organizations is so high.

Carrie: 00:22:11

It's really important and interesting to be in this time that we're in

Carrie: 00:22:15

and be very choosy about who we affiliate, and what they're doing

Carrie: 00:22:18

to create that sense of belonging

Sara: 00:22:20

Tell us a little bit about what folks can expect in your book.

Sara: 00:22:22

What are they gonna learn and find there?

Carrie: 00:22:25

Yeah, so it's really a guidebook.

Carrie: 00:22:27

It's written for organizations and organizational leaders, how

Carrie: 00:22:29

any organization can thoughtfully invest in relationships with

Carrie: 00:22:34

people important to them.

Carrie: 00:22:35

So that's often called community, but it doesn't have to be called community.

Carrie: 00:22:39

In my work since publishing the book in 2020, we have worked with nonprofits,

Carrie: 00:22:43

we worked with spiritual organizations, we worked with schools, any kind of

Carrie: 00:22:47

organization that's trying to bring people together that matter to them.

Carrie: 00:22:50

And it goes through the most important principles and frameworks

Carrie: 00:22:53

to understand to do it really thoughtfully and strategically.

Sara: 00:22:57

We've covered a lot of ground.

Sara: 00:22:59

Is there anything that you wanna share that I haven't brought up yet?

Carrie: 00:23:02

If anything, I would just say that, especially for folks who might be

Carrie: 00:23:06

listening who are thinking about building communities, we don't often talk about the

Carrie: 00:23:10

importance of the ongoing self-leadership that is important in running a community.

Carrie: 00:23:15

What I've found over many years of launching many communities and helping

Carrie: 00:23:18

creators launch communities is that it can be a very confronting thing.

Carrie: 00:23:21

And what I mean by that is, when you launch a community, all of your internal

Carrie: 00:23:25

dialogues about, "Am I doing enough?

Carrie: 00:23:27

Am I doing too much?

Carrie: 00:23:28

Am I helping people in the way that I said I would be?

Carrie: 00:23:32

Am I gonna retreat right now because I just wanna hide from everybody?" All of

Carrie: 00:23:34

it comes up in your face. And for me, and this goes back to, like, I've created

Carrie: 00:23:40

my entire career about confronting much of my own fears around this. For me,

Carrie: 00:23:44

I find that confrontation to be such a gift and an opportunity for me to say

Carrie: 00:23:50

either, "Yes, that's a good question.

Carrie: 00:23:52

Let me sit with it and answer it." Or, " That question is actually just coming

Carrie: 00:23:56

up because of past trauma and fears and things like that, and I just need to quiet

Carrie: 00:24:00

it down. And I need to acknowledge that it's there." And that's part of me being

Carrie: 00:24:04

like, " Hey, I'm here to protect you.

Carrie: 00:24:05

I'm here to keep you safe." And then I could be like, " No, it's okay. I

Carrie: 00:24:09

really appreciate you stepping up, but like you can take a little nap now." And

Carrie: 00:24:14

what a therapeutic approach to the work.

Carrie: 00:24:16

But getting support through that self-leadership is so crucial.

Carrie: 00:24:19

And I see so many creators and entrepreneurs burn out

Carrie: 00:24:22

when they don't have it.

Carrie: 00:24:23

And we have folks in our community who many times have been like, "I

Carrie: 00:24:26

don't actually know if I want to keep going." And then we'll get on one

Carrie: 00:24:29

coaching call and they'll be like, "Oh, this actually wasn't that serious.

Carrie: 00:24:33

I was definitely in a place of dysregulation about this, and now I

Carrie: 00:24:36

feel better." So yeah, just really important to have that support.

Sara: 00:24:39

Oh, I mean, even hearing you talk through that, I'm like, oh.

Sara: 00:24:44

I also don't have to do it all myself.

Sara: 00:24:46

Be cause I struggle with every single gremlin you just mentioned.

Sara: 00:24:49

And so I'm trying to do a better job of, when my gremlins are

Sara: 00:24:53

the barrier, just recognizing, that can be someone else's job.

Sara: 00:24:57

I mean, there are people who are really good at whatever

Sara: 00:25:00

is setting off my gremlins.

Sara: 00:25:02

I think that's part of it too.

Sara: 00:25:03

For a lot of us, especially folks who are solopreneurs, we feel like we have

Sara: 00:25:08

to do it all ourselves, and it's just a really good reminder that community

Sara: 00:25:12

creation and nurturing is challenging enough without feeling like we have

Sara: 00:25:17

to force ourselves to do it all alone.

Carrie: 00:25:20

Yeah.

Carrie: 00:25:20

And in fact, you cannot do it alone.

Carrie: 00:25:22

It's not a solo activity.

Carrie: 00:25:24

It's just not possible.

Carrie: 00:25:25

You're creating something else.

Carrie: 00:25:26

If you're creating it entirely alone and getting no support from

Carrie: 00:25:29

anybody else, you're essentially creating like one-on-one services,

Carrie: 00:25:33

just in a different package, right?

Carrie: 00:25:35

To really create a community, you've got to see, recognize, and invite in the

Carrie: 00:25:39

gifts of others and others' contributions.

Carrie: 00:25:41

And you'd be surprised, people are often just waiting for the

Carrie: 00:25:44

opportunity to be generous.

Carrie: 00:25:45

People want to be asked for their contribution.

Carrie: 00:25:49

Whether that means hosting a call in your community, or bringing their expertise to

Carrie: 00:25:54

a workshop that they wanna run with you.

Carrie: 00:25:55

We have people in our community who step up as volunteers

Carrie: 00:25:58

to welcome in new members.

Carrie: 00:25:59

And that's the thing that just makes them feel happy to be

Carrie: 00:26:02

able to say hello to new people.

Carrie: 00:26:04

And it stresses me out to have to personally welcome

Carrie: 00:26:06

everyone as soon as they join.

Carrie: 00:26:07

So we said, "Okay.

Carrie: 00:26:08

You wanna do this?

Carrie: 00:26:09

Here you go.

Carrie: 00:26:10

Here's a new person that joined, go say hi to them." Yeah.

Carrie: 00:26:12

We have lots of volunteer structure in place in the CMJ community.

Sara: 00:26:16

I learned so much by watching how you do it.

Sara: 00:26:19

It's so cool.

Sara: 00:26:19

So for any listeners who are like, I am gonna build a community, I can't

Sara: 00:26:24

wait, I'm super excited, let’s go!

Sara: 00:26:25

What would you encourage them to consider or do before they actually get started?

Sara: 00:26:32

What's the pre-work that you would recommend before someone turns on that

Sara: 00:26:36

Circle account and starts inviting people?

Carrie: 00:26:39

That's a great question.

Carrie: 00:26:40

I always recommend a couple of things.

One is: 00:26:43

start out by talking to people.

One is: 00:26:46

Talk to people who you think you might want to invite to be in that community.

One is: 00:26:50

And, we teach, as you were mentioning at the beginning of this, we're

One is: 00:26:53

very rigorous in how we do this.

One is: 00:26:54

We teach a template of questions you might want to ask to members.

One is: 00:26:59

But it can just start out as informal conversations like, are you part of

One is: 00:27:02

any communities around this topic?

One is: 00:27:04

If so, what do you like about them?

One is: 00:27:05

What is missing from them?

One is: 00:27:06

What can I provide that's different?

One is: 00:27:08

So number one: talk to people informally and get their feedback.

One is: 00:27:11

And that also starts building up excitement, and people want to support

One is: 00:27:15

you as you go through that journey.

One is: 00:27:16

That's number one.

One is: 00:27:17

And number two is: test it first.

One is: 00:27:19

Do a test run.

One is: 00:27:20

That might mean hosting one workshop, like, a workshop you'd

One is: 00:27:23

like to host in your community.

One is: 00:27:25

If that's something you plan to do or one challenge or hosting

One is: 00:27:29

the kinds of conversations you might wanna have in the community.

One is: 00:27:32

Put them out there and test how they go on a small scale first.

One is: 00:27:37

And bring that bodily awareness into how did this make me feel?

One is: 00:27:40

Did I feel really anxious going into this and I was able to calm

One is: 00:27:43

down and move through that anxiety?

One is: 00:27:45

Or did I feel really anxious about this and then I just found it

One is: 00:27:47

really overwhelming and I shut down?

One is: 00:27:49

I just recommend with everything.

One is: 00:27:50

It's about taking small steps every day.

One is: 00:27:52

That's how communities are built, is one small next step at a time.

One is: 00:27:57

And so start small, and then build from there.

Sara: 00:28:00

I also think there's a subtle nuance in something you just said

Sara: 00:28:03

that it's not, " Am I anxious?

Sara: 00:28:05

And if I'm anxious, don't do it." It's, " Am I anxious to begin, and then I settle

Sara: 00:28:09

in and get my role?" Because it's so easy to avoid the things that make us anxious.

Sara: 00:28:14

So much of what we have to gain is what happens when we just do it scared.

Sara: 00:28:17

It's like I start everything I do scared.

Sara: 00:28:19

And then once you get rolling, nothing, starts fun.

Sara: 00:28:23

Everything starts with anxiety.

Sara: 00:28:25

So I just think that's really wise to not have the standard be what

Sara: 00:28:28

can you do without being nervous?

Carrie: 00:28:30

Yeah.

Carrie: 00:28:31

I have to tell you, I've been doing this for many years.

Carrie: 00:28:32

I get nervous before every single call I host.

Carrie: 00:28:36

And now I host multiple calls a week in our community.

Carrie: 00:28:39

Every single time I get nervous, and by the end of that call, I'm in our slack

Carrie: 00:28:42

with our internal team being like, " I love these people" — in all caps.

Carrie: 00:28:46

Because we also know that the reaction that our body has to anxiety

Carrie: 00:28:50

is very similar to excitement.

Carrie: 00:28:51

And so those things can get really mixed up for us.

Carrie: 00:28:54

And the nervousness is okay.

Carrie: 00:28:55

It's actually just keeping you on your toes in some cases.

Sara: 00:28:58

Well Carrie, this has been amazing.

Sara: 00:29:00

I knew it would be, but this has been amazing.

Sara: 00:29:02

Where can people find out more about you and your work if they wanna hear more?

Carrie: 00:29:07

So you can find me on Instagram or LinkedIn, at Carrie Melissa Jones, and

Carrie: 00:29:12

then my website is carriemelissajones.com.

Sara: 00:29:15

Awesome.

Sara: 00:29:15

And anything else you wanna before we drop?

Carrie: 00:29:19

Just that it's a long game.

Carrie: 00:29:20

Community building and community participation.

Carrie: 00:29:22

If you're not planning on launching and leading your own community,

Carrie: 00:29:25

becoming involved in other communities is also a long game.

Carrie: 00:29:28

And it takes time.

Carrie: 00:29:29

Just be patient with yourself, and everything is an opportunity to open up

Carrie: 00:29:34

to whatever might be next in your life.

Carrie: 00:29:36

yeah.

Carrie: 00:29:36

Just take one small step at a time.

Sara: 00:29:38

If you're in a community as a participant and you're like, “I don’t

Sara: 00:29:42

know if this is for me…” Do you have anything that you would say, try

Sara: 00:29:47

or do or consider before you exit?

Carrie: 00:29:50

Go back to the onboarding materials and see if you missed something.

Carrie: 00:29:55

Nobody ever reads onboarding materials or watches the onboarding video

Carrie: 00:29:59

thoroughly enough the first time.

Carrie: 00:30:00

Go back and just see if there was an instruction you missed somewhere.

Carrie: 00:30:04

Especially in the excitement of joining something new,

Carrie: 00:30:05

you can often glaze over it.

Carrie: 00:30:07

So, that's number one.

Carrie: 00:30:08

And then number two, I would just say, look at who the leaders of that

Carrie: 00:30:13

community are and see are these people that you want to surround yourself with?

Carrie: 00:30:17

And if yes, then just stick with it a little bit longer.

Carrie: 00:30:20

And if no, then don't feel bad.

Carrie: 00:30:22

Like it's not a cult.

Carrie: 00:30:23

You can leave anytime you want.

Carrie: 00:30:24

If it's a cult, like, that's a different conversation we can be having.

Carrie: 00:30:27

But that's the whole beauty of communities is that they have permeable boundaries.

Carrie: 00:30:32

You should be able to come and go.

Carrie: 00:30:33

Otherwise, like I said, that's the definition of a closed cult.

Sara: 00:30:37

Yeah.

Sara: 00:30:37

So then what about for community hosts who have started a community?

Sara: 00:30:40

They're up and running and they're like, “I don’t think this is for me…” or “I

Sara: 00:30:44

don’t know if I can do this…” What would you say to someone in that position?

Carrie: 00:30:49

Very clearly: simplify.

Carrie: 00:30:51

Delete whatever you have going on there.

Carrie: 00:30:54

See if you can do 30% less.

Carrie: 00:30:55

I have a feeling it will still be more than enough.

Carrie: 00:30:58

Delete a space that you've created, delete an event series that you're planning.

Carrie: 00:31:01

Just go down to its most simple, what is the easiest possible

Carrie: 00:31:06

thing you can do and start there.

Sara: 00:31:08

It's fantastic advice.

Sara: 00:31:10

Well, Carrie, thank you so much.

Sara: 00:31:11

This has been wonderful.

Sara: 00:31:12

I can't wait to have you back when we can talk about your book in more detail.

Carrie: 00:31:15

Thank you so much for having me.

Carrie: 00:31:17

This has been such a fun conversation and great to tap

Carrie: 00:31:19

into this like part of myself.

Carrie: 00:31:21

I often, I mask a lot.

Carrie: 00:31:23

I mask it a lot.

Sara: 00:31:25

Well, good.

Sara: 00:31:26

Well, this is a safe zone,

Carrie: 00:31:27

Yes, I love it.

Sara: 00:31:31

All right.

Sara: 00:31:31

That was my conversation with Carrie Melissa Jones about community building,

Sara: 00:31:36

for those of us who might not naturally gravitate toward group settings.

Sara: 00:31:40

I love Carrie's insights that community isn't a sprint, it's a long game.

Sara: 00:31:44

Something that takes time, and practice and patience.

Sara: 00:31:48

Whether you're participating or building.

Sara: 00:31:50

If you're interested in learning more about Carrie's work, you can find her on

Sara: 00:31:54

Instagram and LinkedIn as Carrie Melissa Jones, or visit her website at carrie

Sara: 00:31:59

melissa jones dot com . Her book, Building Brand Communities offers a deeper dive

Sara: 00:32:04

into the frameworks that she's developed.

Sara: 00:32:06

What resonated with you from today's conversation?

Sara: 00:32:09

Did any of Carrie's insights about quiet communities or the

Sara: 00:32:12

power of affiliation even without participation strike a chord for you.

Sara: 00:32:18

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Sara: 00:32:21

All right, friends, That's it for today.

Sara: 00:32:23

Stay in the loop with everything going on around here by

Sara: 00:32:26

visiting findrc.co/newsletter and joining my mailing list.

Sara: 00:32:32

Got questions?

Sara: 00:32:33

My email addresses are too hard to spell, so visit findrc.co/contact

Sara: 00:32:40

and shoot me a note that way.

Sara: 00:32:41

You'll also find me at @saralobkovich on most of your

Sara: 00:32:45

favorite social media platforms.

Sara: 00:32:47

For today's show notes, visit findrc.co/thinkydoers.

Sara: 00:32:53

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Sara: 00:32:57

And if you know other Thinkydoers who'd benefit from this episode, please share.

Sara: 00:33:02

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Sara: 00:33:06

I'm looking forward to the questions this episode sparks for you, and I

Sara: 00:33:10

look forward to seeing you next time.